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David, That is a big concern, and I had the same thought. It has happened here already. This country is divided by red and blue states, liberal and conservative, right and left. What ever happened to one nation thinking. They have engineered this divide to split up decent people who have differing views but still want a good life for all. We were a much more united country just two generations ago. I don’t care if someone is one way or the other in their political views. A good idea is still a good idea, no matter who proposes it. We have shut ourselves off from every view the “other” side has to offer. It certainly is a shame.
Costa Rica is just about evenly split on this issue and when all is said and done, they might be blaming each other and not the politicians for any bad results. I hope we are both wrong about one segment of their society pitted against another.
Simon, GM workers and their union fought hard to get a decent wage and healthcare. To make anyone have to pay for their own healthcare is just not cricket. Management will always get their healthcare paid for, why not the people that keep these fatcats in their offices.
The US can compete with China… If the playing field were level. We have to engineer products people want to buy, and that are designed to be better and longer lasting. The Chinese can’t produce a car that will sell in the US right now, and all the technology was given them by US manufactures anyway. We have to keep manufacturing at home, design fuel efficient cars and trucks that will last. GM had a great run when SUVs were all, the rage. No one complained when they were raking in the cash. Then the price of fuel goes up, and GM and other manufacturers are caught with nothing in the pipe for sales in the new market. That is a management screwup, not the assembler’s. They had their head in the sand while every Japanese car maker was retooling and redesigning constantly.
We put a man on the moon in 1969. We should have the best and brightest engineers working on improving what we once were best at in the automotive field. All the bottom line beancounters do is tell them not to retool, just keep the same old V8 engine that was in production in the 1950s and engineer peripheral components to make it more fuel efficient. Metallurgy has come a long way since 1950. We have to use this knowledge and technology and improve the product. Then we will be competitive.
It costs more to live in the US than China and many other countries around the world. Workers should be paid here according to these standards. Other countries have socialized medicine, so the workers have their health benefits. How will a US company decide how much extra to pay the employee to buy their own healthcare? Who will oversee it, the government? That will cost all of us.
Here’s a sad note. Today I was talking with a scrap metal dealer. He wrecks everything from cranes to steel building beams. He told me business is booming. Most of the scrap steel goes over to China. We don’t manufacture much anymore so it goes overseas. When the hell are we going to wake up! This BS about our being a service and technology economy is only going to hold up so long. Other countries rip off our technology, and we outsource our teleservice industry. Try buying any product with a US brand-name on it that is not made in China. We are selling our souls and our future. And not only because of our unfair trade agreements with China. It is because of the shortsighted, greedy corporate managers, and politicians looking to feather their own nest, and keep corporate profits up. But how long can they hold on to this charade.
US car makers have already been sold out by the Chinese even with new plants we set up there. China went into its own manufacturing 5 years after US companies invested millions in plants and training. One of the new Chinese cars is called the “Chery.” Sounds a little like “Chevy” doesn’t it.
It looks like soon enough everyone in the US will have to have a Ph.D. in order to earn a living. The ones who can’t cut it in college will fall by the wayside and become dependent on the Ph.D. to support them through government social programs, or else, dare I say, the masses may revolt.
Just my opinion. Enough ranting for tonight.
To everything Alfred has said above I would like to add that retirees’ pensions and health insurance are, in every sense of the term, deferred compensation. GM’s active and retired workers earned every dime of their current and future benefits. They and other employee groups have agreed to reduced current incomes in return for future security. It’s not materially different from someone who takes all their current earnings and invests a portion in retirement savings. The GM employees just had the participation of the corporation in their plan, and now the corporation (like many of its peers) is looking to renege.
There was a very good article in Tico Times this week. Please see http://www.ticotimes/business. It was regarding how CAFTA has impacted all the current signatory countries. All but good old CR and Panama.
Lotus – The U.K would have had a run on the banks two weeks ago if the Gov’t hadn’t stepped in and bailed out Nothern Rock. Now tax payers money in England pay for the mortgages of the greedy in the U.S. This is not exactly capitalism is it? It’s more like a form of communism. If the markets were allowed to do what they are supposed to many more banks and indeed institutions would rightly fail; unfortunately they are not allowed to and the lessons don’t get learned. Long Term Capital Management was a good example in that the effects were not properly felt by enough people.
I have been of the opinion the U.S. housing market was due for a correction for at least two years and the stock market for longer however the correction was put on hold by Greenspan. Gold $1,000 sooner rather than later. Did you buy some?
Don’t know much about the subject, but is there a free trade agreement with China and Costa Rica ? So when you say cut out the middleman, CR can just import direct from Chica anyways .
Simon, I’m not an economist, but I have observed the US and other countries and I see NO way for CAFTA to benefit Costa Rica as a whole since these agreements haven’t typically helped the general public nor the environment (among other areas) anywhere they’ve taken hold–they benefit the largest of corporations. This is one time I don’t think CR will be exceptional. Ticos will take a beating, so will their environment and their indices of health and education will plummet. That said, I wanted to ask you–Do you really think that taking care of the health services for their employees is what’s put GM in a precarious economic situation? How about the amazing increasing gap between executives and their workers’ compensation? This type of gap has been skyrocketing since the 80’s–I seem to remember a tall actor who was playing the role of a lifetime then & even had an economic term named after him… The fact is that the gap between the average executive compensation package and the average worker has been over 500 to 1 since 2000. Even now when the US has serious economic concerns, CEO earnings have risen 16% this year alone (last year it was ‘only’ around 9% according to executivedisclosure.com). Case in point, as much as I may like some of what Rupert Murdoch does, he makes $25,683,694/year not really the average workers salary! Hard to imagine…Okay, so GM executives only make a bit over a MILLION dollars each which is certainly not at the top of the corporate heap, but I would dare say that executive pay, throught the last decades, has not helped take GM out of its economic woes! Of course, let’s not even go to the land of illegal compensation into the land of “let’s play who can be a bigger thief” we’ve seen unfold (God knows how much is still to be discovered) which tends to create an economic mess. Isn’t it time to stop blaming the little guy for corporate problems. Why actually want that type of situations to be transplanted to a wonderful country like Costa Rica? I even wonder just how good natured Ticos will continue to be once CAFTA steals the PURA VIDA right out of their smiles…I can give you a glimpse, look up what has happened in the last 10 when they’ve tried to privatize ICE, it hasn’t been pretty…and Ticos are some of the least confrontational people I know! In spite of all of the legislative corruption, it will not be the first nor the last time that Ticos have stood up to reverse agreements mobilized thru some legislative corruption. I believe they will come thru again.
Here is a link confirming the slowdown in the service sector of the US economy. It only took a few days from my post above telling of how long can a service economy carry us. Service represents 80% of our economy. This shows the importance of manufacturing businesses leaving the US, and its impact our future. http://moneynews.newsmax.com/money/archives/articles/2007/10/3/100926.cfm?s=al&promo_code=3AC7-1
Rebaragon – I don’t think the health care charges put GM where they are now and frankly there are probably many reasons. Competition from overseas would though appear to be the main culprit.
When the Government or large organisations collect money on behalf of groups of people it tends to have a way of evaporating. I would rather take my cut of my “allowance” and take care of it myself. This idea that the State will take care of us from the cradle to the grave as the Labour party in Britain still believe it should is and always was, an absurd notion. Unions and companies having such funds are really asking for trouble since no doubt the money ends up in the hands of Wall St. money managers and from there we all know what happens.
Today the young realise the social welfare system will not be there for them and if they were smart they would figure out ways to avoid contributing to it. It’s a ponzi scheme (i.e. it takes increasing amounts of people to join in order to keep it going, just like the chain letter scams). With population rates falling in Europe and elsewhere the writing is on the wall in spite of attempts to open the floodgates and allow in as many people as possible into the U.K.
GM workers are entitled to everything they have worked for and that is why they should divide the fund up between them all and let them squander it on flat screen TV’s and new SUV’s so that they cannot blame anyone else for their position.
It is a shame that if the fund were paid out that 99% of them wouldn’t know what to do with the windfall other than the above. But the fact is that, properly managed, it would probably give them sufficient funds for their lifelong medical costs and much more.
Your point regarding wage disparity is true and the worker at the lower end makes less today in real terms than he did 10, 20, 30 years ago. Now that’s progress!
CAFTA Free Trade Agreement – Must watch video
See Sen. Sherrod Brown’s speech at:
U.S. Congressman Sherrod Brown is the author of “Myths of Free Trade” which you can see at
Scott Oliver – Founder
WeLoveCostaRica.comThanks Scott–It would be wonderful if that video was seen by as many Costa Ricans as possible before this week’s vote! Is this YouTube video being discussed in the news media there? I sure hope that Costa Ricans think long and hard about how this will affect them.
Dear Simondg,
I agree, the bleeding of labor out of the US being sent abroad is a huge, especially for the manufacturing field. Will this not also be a factor for CR? Although highly trained labor will probably continue to have Intel type of businesses (well, until another country can provide cheaper labor), what will happen to the rest of the population? What will happen to the economic disparities already there? I did think that your remark about GM workers was harsh both times. I’m sure some will be careless; however, people in the US HAVE to WORRY about health insurance. In NJ, a single person pays over $4,000/yr and family can pay over $12,000/year for basic health (no dental, no vision care) just in case someone becomes seriously ill. A huge majority of people go bankrupt in the US do to a health crisis. Health insurance in Costa Rica is now affordable and the public healthcare system although overburdened, keeps that population healthy, with wonderful life expectancies and low childhood mortality rates—What do you think will happen to that and is a different type of telephone bill worth so much national and personal damage?
redbaron – (your name’s too long – hope you don’t mind).
My point really with GM workers is more about how these people don’t stand a chance. One group or another has control of their healthcare money and it is probably invested in the wrong assets in the first place so it’s at risk and then even if they did get the money themselves it is unlikely they would have a clue what to do with it because frankly the average virtual novice investor only knows what he is told by the Govt and the mainstream press.
My comments may appear harsh but truly I believe that centralised healthcare is extremely wasteful; it doesn’t matter how much money they throw at it just doesn’t work. In the U.K. our system is used by people like Michael Moore to demonstrate how wonderfully it all functions; the truth of the matter is that anyone who has the means gets private cover because it’s so much better. Even my die-hard Labour voter sister has it and she also sends her kids to semi private school; oh the contradictions!
It may have changed, but when I last lived in the U.K. if you had your own private medical cover you still had to pay into the State system as it was deducted at source of earnings. Yet millions still go private. The Dutch have a pretty good system where everyone is responsible for paying their own insurance; not too sure of the full details but it seems to work better than the U.K. Now, the Dutch are, or were, notoriously socialist; so if they have a semi private deal that works perhaps that’s the model to copy.
And finally it’s my opinion that the population is generally healthy because of the diet and lifestyle and not necessarily the healthcare system. But people are fatter here now than in the eighties too just like everywhere else. I mean, just look at me! (Not really true but I’m not the svelte youngster I was.)
Dear Simondg,
You sound like a charming person, even if a few extra lbs have crept up on you. Heck, I’m not a size 2 anymore, but I think that a 5/6 is not so bad either ;-). Although I do have family in UK, I have never been there and really can’t speak about how the healthcare system works work in England, but I have lived a total of 9 years in Costa Rica and do know that system (warts and all). If you think that access to healthcare doesn’t make a difference in for people’s quality of life, then take a ride to San Vito in Costa Rica (side note: they have really good Italian pizza there because of their Italian heritage) and watch how the indigenous people of Panama ride the bus for hours (sometimes days), without much clothing, sometimes barefoot to access Costa Rica’s healthcare for their sick children. Why? Because under current Costa Rican law, ALL children will be cared for and in Panama, these kids would die. Yes, the system could be better and maybe a mix of social & private healthcare can work, but access to healthcare is vital for a population’s quality of life. What good is anything else if your health is so poor that you can’t enjoy it and worse when you know that your health could be better IF you could only afford it? People from the countryside and many city dwellers could not afford private healthcare in CR. What private doctor is going to work for FREE? Even with Costa Rica’s socialized medicine, the people of Suretka (Upper Talamanca) didn’t get a clinic until fairly recently and it isn’t even open everyday. A real bummer if you get bitten by a terciopelo out there (which is fairly common in these communities) or God forbid you have cancer and need treatment unexpectedly–Costa Rica does not have a homogenous population, there are various groups that would be devastated if their access to healthcare was lost. I for one will be eternally grateful for the excellent care my 4 yr old daughter received at the Children’s Hosp. As the ambulance brought her in, no one was asking me for her insurance or if I could pay, the first order of business was to treat her. The money was handled separately because her health & life was what mattered. When I had to have surgery in 2001, I paid a private doctor and a private room in a State hospital because they happened to have the best medical technology required for my case. You can’t throw out the ‘kid with the bathwater’–healthcare should be modified in CR & most certainly in the US to keep up with current demands, but I’ll take the CR system for CR any day over the rape we get here in the US over this issue. Your redbaron, aka, Rebeca
Health care should be provided. It’s greed and corruption that prevents this and it has nothing to do with socialism…that’s silly! We all pay taxes and lots of them, everything is taxed in the US besides the federal, state, property($10,000 per year where I am from!!) and city taxes we pay. If tax money(our money) can go to pay for/fund so much bs; health care for everyone should be top of the list! Sure it’s easy to be smug about it when you have the money or the coverage. So what if your sister sends her children to private schools and benefits from state provided health care? Should all persons who earn say $150,000 dollars per year and have big 401k accounts be excluded from collecting social security when they retire? Of course not..
Edited on Oct 05, 2007 08:24
Lotus- my sister is in favour of State intervention in her daily life and believes in the socialist welfare system, but between the dream and the reality lays the rub.
Realising the woeful inadequacies of the school and health system she rejects them both and goes private; surely this is enough evidence of the facts for anyone! I simply find it a bit hypocritical.
Your point regarding high earners not receiving social security doesn’t make sense in this context; I didn’t say she shouldn’t be entitled to use the State system of course she should; she’s paid for it. But why support it if it’s not good enough and you then use something else?
If someone has paid into the fraudulent social security system their whole life they should of course receive what they paid for. But it’s my belief that they shouldn’t be paying into it in the first place; the Government knows how to spend money and not how to make or invest it. I also believe that anyone earning a low wage shouldn’t be taxed at all.
You haven’t experienced socialised medicine for the masses but wait till you do! Whilst I agree that in a less developed country like CR it may be the only solution for now it has proven to be a total disaster in the U.K. Millions of Pounds are wasted and the lines for operations get longer. People go private out of necessity and because when it comes to these matters they want the best professionals money can buy.
Affordable healthcare provided by the private sector is the answer for a developed nation.
You say this has nothing to do with socialism but I say that’s exactly what it’s about. Whenever the Government tries to be involved in industry it inevitably goes wrong. In the pre Thatcher years we used to have a Gov’t run car firm; they produced diabolically bad cars and when exposed to competition went bankrupt. Healthcare is the same; every year they produce accounts and millions have just vanished into thin air; no one can account for it and no one is held responsible; least of all the Government Ministers. If the same thing happened to a private medical facility someone would at least go to jail and have to face the music.
It’s always easier to spend someone else’s money!
Edited on Oct 06, 2007 16:06
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