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[quote=”philharmonic”]Yes I do advocate a 10% accross the board tax for individuals and Business.[/quote]
A drop in the bucket!!!!
Watching this discussion play out I can see that neither side will convince the other.
What I do know is that left to voluntarily helping those who truly need help will never work. Those who have enough, however you define enough, there is always something else that is more important. I am an example of this myself.
Unlike those who are younger, who can be categorized in several ways from just getting by to those who play one-ups-man-ship to those who are keeping up with the Jones’s to those who are outright greedy, we who are retired live in a different situation. Our work lives are done and our income is what it is.
We, my wife and I, are in Costa Rica because we know that we have a guaranteed income, small as it is, but we also have a need to pay back to society for a decent life. We have never been rich, never owned a new car or anything near it. What we can do in Costa Rica we could never do in the States.
There are those who think that, no matter what they have, more is better and there are those who think I have a little extra that I can give to help.
The current situation in the States is what I consider dire. In my lifetime (post depression) things have never been worse. Eight years of GWB comes about as close as anything can to destroying the U.S. as an economic and military power. The Congress is perpetuating programs that outlived their usefulness long ago. They are wasting taxpayer money every time they turn around and catering to the lobby industry against the best interests of the public. David has argues against term limits but the longer our elected officials are in office the less they head the wishes of the public they represent.
My view is, leaving God and church out of the argument, we have a responsibility to those who cannot do for themselves.
With that said, I know that there are going to be some who take unfair advantage. There are those who are capable of earning a living but are too lazy to do so and there are those who own a Cadillac but cannot afford to feed their family.
It is the responsibility of every one of us to do everything possible to weed these people out of any welfare programs.
SPENDING is the Key word. If the Feds stuck to the Constitution then everything will fall into it’s own Place. 10% should be all the Government should have to finance the Defense of our country and to uphold our laws. That’s all they should be doing other than upholding the CONSTITUTION, and Bill of Rights and even that is too much. In all other far reaching Powers that they have laid claim to, are the TOTALLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL Mandates and Laws they have passed and are getting ready to pass, even though the American people have overwelmingly rejected them. Yes the situation here in the States are Dire and the very fabric of our American way of life is at Stake. American people are Coming back to life, and seeing everything clearer. I certainly hope it’s not too late. I remember Kruchev said many years ago ” We will bury you… from within”, meaning the U.S. That is not the whole quote. But you get the drift. Incrementalism, 2 steps forward 1 step back 2 steps forward 1 step back eventually you will reach your goal, Classic Little Red Book saying. 😆
Sorry, but in my Utopian World;
SLAVERY IS ABOLISHED. NO WELFARE ALLOWED. SLAVERY IS ABOLISHED.[quote=”philharmonic”]NO WELFARE ALLOWED.[/quote]
Like I said – I can see that neither side will convince the other.
[quote=”waggoner41″][quote=”philharmonic”]Yes I do advocate a 10% accross the board tax for individuals and Business.[/quote]
A drop in the bucket!!!!
Watching this discussion play out I can see that neither side will convince the other.
What I do know is that left to voluntarily helping those who truly need help will never work. Those who have enough, however you define enough, there is always something else that is more important. I am an example of this myself.
Unlike those who are younger, who can be categorized in several ways from just getting by to those who play one-ups-man-ship to those who are keeping up with the Jones’s to those who are outright greedy, we who are retired live in a different situation. Our work lives are done and our income is what it is.
We, my wife and I, are in Costa Rica because we know that we have a guaranteed income, small as it is, but we also have a need to pay back to society for a decent life. We have never been rich, never owned a new car or anything near it. What we can do in Costa Rica we could never do in the States.
There are those who think that, no matter what they have, more is better and there are those who think I have a little extra that I can give to help.
The current situation in the States is what I consider dire. In my lifetime (post depression) things have never been worse. Eight years of GWB comes about as close as anything can to destroying the U.S. as an economic and military power. The Congress is perpetuating programs that outlived their usefulness long ago. They are wasting taxpayer money every time they turn around and catering to the lobby industry against the best interests of the public. David has argues against term limits but the longer our elected officials are in office the less they head the wishes of the public they represent.
My view is, leaving God and church out of the argument, we have a responsibility to those who cannot do for themselves.
With that said, I know that there are going to be some who take unfair advantage. There are those who are capable of earning a living but are too lazy to do so and there are those who own a Cadillac but cannot afford to feed their family.
It is the responsibility of every one of us to do everything possible to weed these people out of any welfare programs.[/quote]
This is a good and well-reasoned comment. We share your giving back philosophy. Thanks.
Hey David… Thanks for your efforts in trying put words in my mouth… but as you can ask anyone that knows me… I have enough of my own! But thanks for trying!LOL And in case you doubt that… read on! LOL
I think if you take the time to read my posting once again (slowly this time) you’ll find I never said that we should do away with Social Security and Medicare… I pointed out that they are being IGNORED and need to be ADDRESSED and FIXED before we create another monster government program that sounds great… but is doomed to failure. A failure and cost that will drag the US under! A cost that our children (well not yours…. I don’t believe you have kids), grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will be saddled with for the next century!! And all this at a time when the US is facing one of the greatest economic challenges in it’s history we’re looking to “spend” our way out of it… and as sooooo many Americans will tell you…. that DOESN’T WORK! If you have trouble locating one to ask… just look for someone that spent themselves into a black hole and lost everything…. there’s plenty of them around! The bills come due at some point… and the US Government has never “fixed” past problems… they throw money at them and add it to the national debt… and in case you haven’t noticed our creditors are getting shaky about leading us more… as well as our ability to pay it back! And if Uncle Sam and the American people don’t think it’s possible in this situation they are sadly mistaken! The time is now to fix what we have brought to life before we give birth again! Not all that much different than a welfare mother that has three kids she can’t provide for… getting public assistance…. and bringing two more mouths to feed into the world! While great and not so great societies have come and gone for any number of reasons… history does repeat itself and it’s something we should not ignore.
While we see “news” of this health care plan each day in the media… sometimes hourly updates…. Social Security and Medicare become bigger and bigger problems! And the cost and pain to fix them gets higher and higher… quickly approaching a point that NO ONE will want to deal with! Or the “fix” will be so painful that it will not be possible! Are you aware that right now SS is paying out more than it’s taking in monthly…. and has been for the past several months. And we’re not talking a small deficit… it’s huge! Yep… all those IOUs Uncle Sam stuffed the “Trust” fund with over the years while he went on a spending spree, living well beyond his means, fulfilling rosy past promises and funding ill conceived give-away programs are now coming due! And it’s UGLY…. trust me on that! And while the GAO originally projected that this (SS imbalance) would only be a temporary situation lasting a year or two they have now quietly backed off that projection! And guess where the money is coming from to pay back this debt?…. No… it’s not in a CD somewhere… it’s coming from current government budget which are being sent deeper into the red! All the stimulus money being tossed around is a band-aid on what will come in the next 2-3 years! Doing nothing more than delaying a painful reality that most folks are too blind to see or too afraid to confront!
Go figure! So less revenue coming in… Uncle Sam having to pony up what he has borrowed from Social Security over the past decades… SS expenses exceeding income…. So what has Uncle Sam done to deal with this problem?…. NOTHING! But I hear they have some new water-cooled minting presses at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing…. seems the current ones were overeating too often! LOL! With all this going on right now…. lets not forget unemployment… homelessness… the hungry….what’s the big push these days? Oh yeah… Universal health care… let’s not worry about the BASICS… like jobs… a roof…. and food…. people need jobs, a place to sleep, and food EVERY DAY…. so perhaps my “basics” are a little clearer than yours…
Our elected representatives and President are working hard to spend more money they don’t have! And dazzling the American people with their hard work and dedication to society and universal health care! Hugo has nothing on the Boys in Washington my friends! You want health care reform…. great just tell me what it’s going to cost me and I’ll tell you if I’m in favor! I’ve never bought a car without knowing the price before I signed on the dotted line… and I’m guessing none or you have either… so how is this situation any different? They’re selling me a car…. telling me its what I need… telling me I’ll save money in the long run…. pushing me to drive it off the lot…. and they’ll send me the bill later! I DON’T think so! And I can’t even get into the THOUSANDS of other government programs that are bleeding America dry… it would take a lifetime! Let’s stick to the basics… or even better… fix the programs we’ve got now…. eliminate those we can’t justify or fund… and get back to reality! It’s time! And if you missed it yesterday…. the Dems managed to get the vote they needed from Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.)with a niffty $50 million PLUM to his home state in the form of total Medicaid funding for the next decade from Uncle Sam… there’s something serious wrong when a Congress and President have to spend that kind of money for a vote! If it’s such a great deal for all Americans why then do they have buy this guy’s support! Do you have a clue what this “Federal” program is going to do to state budgets? I guess Ben does…. that’s the reason he sold his vote to cover his state’s share!
But then again… this is a government that gave GM a little over $50 billion dollars for a 51% interest in the company…. if I have my math right GM was trading at a little under $5/ share at the time with about 1 billion shares outstanding for a market capitalization of about $5 billion… so why not just buy them outright…. 100% and use the other $45 billion to make it a viable car company and create jobs? Instead we we spent 10 times what the company was worth… got half… and allowed the same idiots to run the show! Pure GENIUS! If government is going to get involved… they need to know the cost… have a way to pay for it…. and be smarter! Do you want these same people now taking on Universal health care??
As for my social security account… it’s not an issue for me. I don’t include it in my retirement plans even though there is a sizable amount of money in it. I have more than a decade before I can collect… and from what I see now… it will either be so watered down or will become nothing more than a supplemental welfare program for folks that have not sacrificed, saved, and invested for their retirement as I have. I came to that conclusion many years ago when they started “taxing” your SS retirement earnings if you had addition retirement income sources (not wages in retirement) that exceeded a limit. So let me get this straight… I max out my SS account… I save… I invest… I sacrifice…. and when it comes time to collect… I get less (receive SS payments that are then subjected to taxation returning the money to Uncle Sam’s pocket!) because I did the right thing and took some personal responsibility for my future? Does that sound like a system that encourages “trust”?
As for the current wars…. losers from the start… if you’re not going to use the big stick don’t get into the game… we’ve seen it over and over again the last 50 years! If you’re going to be the world’s enforcer you have to be willing you get down and dirty when the time comes… something US policy seems incapable of doing! There will always be mud holes in this world that no amount of money, reason, or blood can fix! Sad fact but true… time to get that straight in our minds! The equally sad fact is that a good number of those serving in the military would be home and unemployed if not engaged in these conflicts! So perhaps Uncle Sam doesn’t want to see more folks on the streets in the US! Time to cut our losses… and for those who say it can’t be done…. remember a little place called Somalia? But then again the folks there aren’t sitting on oil and don’t have the desire or ability to destroy Israel!
And David… as to who I am… does choosing not to share personal information publicly make my opinion any less valid than yours? Does not choosing to share with the world in a public forum ,as you have, a position based on an attorney’s letter not to comply with the luxury tax filing requirements…. or advising everyone that you’re not reporting your interests in a foreign corporation to the IRS as required… Or for that matter… providing your full name, location, and showing a picture of yourself make your words carry more weight than mine? The cat is a nice touch… I will share the fact that I have two!
It’s the Internet David… it’s like posting your info on every telephone pole in the world… DANGEROUS! That’s not paranoia… that’s just reality! You should consider that when you post or share personal information. We all appreciate each other’s input… but there must be limits. I’ve been on the Internet forever… even before Al Gore claimed to have invented it…. a time before the Net when we shared info on BBSs (Bulletin Board Systems). My choice not to hang my information on as many telephone poles as you have is perhaps based on a bit more experience than yours. And remember… just because you say it on the Internet doesn’t make it true… you could be a 400 pound Filipino women in a mo-mo who’s never been to Costa Rica posting from a Starbucks in Manila or is that me?? LOL
Don’t mind my rants… just my opinion… and I aways enjoy our exchanges… whether we agree or not! On balance I think we often agree… and I always enjoy the mental exercise of defending a position. As I like to say… Ignorance is Bliss… and I’m a heck of a lot less blissful these days! 8)
Imxploring, Couldn’t have said it better myself. CONSTITUTION IS THE KEY to unlock this nightmare we are in right now. We were given this Document by our ForeFathers in Blood They shed for it, to give their Children and Grandchildren a better Place to live.
Spending and “THE GREAT SOCIETY” will be the DOWNFALL.
Ignorance will be the Deciding Factor.so how is it that poor little costa rica can have universal health care and the US cannot? all the rhetoric aside, that is the basic question i have. the US is the only country in the world where people lose their homes or file bankruptcy for unpaid medical bills. if i am paying taxes, then i should be entitled to very basic healthcare, instead of making the fat cats at the insurance companies richer and richer while they decide which claims to pay and which to deny.
Read the BILL they are not allowing to be read. It is NOT about HealthCare, but Control. That’s why they have to pass it in the Dead of Night, and not let anyone read it first. Every Bill they bring up is about control, NOT about anything they say it is. They LIE.
Some of our fellow members have referenced the Constitution and The Bill Of Rights; for all intent and purposes; the paper is worth more than the intent of the documents. You need not look further the The Patriot Act, which circumvents the Constitution and The Bill Of Rights. Freedom and Democracy in America, are only an illusion. All due respect to all my fellow military men and women under arms, did you forget about the oath we took. The domestic enemies are our currently elected representatives in the congress, senate, and yes, even in the White House. The madness has shifted from Washington to Iraq, Courts Martial for becoming and making another soldier with-child. Yet, this same commanding general continues sending soldiers with PTSD, depression and anxiety back on patrols and combat operations. One need only look at history, all great civilizations have fallen from within; the Roman Empire is one example. American is the new Rome, Rome is burning, and the american public is being distracted by the government with healthcare debates, back-room deals, bribes and extortion. Just look at the stock market,insurance and health stocks; and you will see where the universal healthcare issue will stand in the future.
Soldier, Been saying the same thing since the Sixties. You are Totally Right. Doesn’t matter who is in office, they have been laying the Ground work for years. Now it is coming to the final nail in the Coffin. There will be a difficult time ahead for People who believe in the Constitution and The Bill of Rights. They will be labeled Traitors, rounded up and exterminated, as all other undesirables too. Anyone who stands up and says “NO, WE ARE NOT COMMUNISTS!” will be the first to be purged. Then anyone who doesn’t contribute to the Collective will be diappeared. Yes, History does repeat itself, unless you know History (Dumbing down of America) then you are doomed to repeat it.
[quote=”philharmonic”] Dumbing down of America[/quote]
The vast majority of American citizens don’t bother to take the time to inform themselves in several areas, most notably poitics, economics and their rights as citizens.
If you read the Constitution thoroughly, [b][u]Amendment 8[/u][/b] lays out the things that Congress is required to address. There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits Congress from spending your tax money in any way they see fit.
Among the items that are required of Congress are to [b]”provide for the common Defense and [u]general Welfare of the United States.”[/u][/b]
One of the things that I see as consistent under that requirement is for the assistance of those citizens in [b]NEED[/b]. I precluding those who are fully capable of making it on their own but are too lazy to do so and those who have assets that are outrageously inappropriate to the definition of needy.
That said I have several arguements regarding the current interpretation of several of the Bill of Rights. Some take into consideration the times in which it was written.
If you want to argue something worthwhile consider the fact that one lone athiest in California, with the aid of the 9th Circuit Court and the Supreme Court, was able to stop the Pledge of Allegiance in schools because he didn’t want his daughter exposed to the phrase “One nation under God”.
The first amendment does not entitle anyone with freedom [b]from[/b] religion. Its intent was to allow us to have the freedom to worship in any way we wished.:cry:
And that freedom to worship in any we wish has implicit within it the freedom not to worship at all. Freedom [b]of[/b] religion surely implies equally freedom [b]from[/b] religion.
Phil, if you’re chasing around looking for something to fear, you don’t have to wait for health care reform to pass. You’ve been overlooking the Patriot Act since 2001. Does it strike you odd that just a few days after the attacks in New York and Washington in 2001 a Congressperson had the Patriot Act, 700+ pages of carefully crafted text, ready to submit? And has anybody read [b]that[/b]?
Worry about what’s real.
imx, we’ve already established that, in your reality, no government program past, present or future can, by definition, succeed. No need to beat that dead horse.
When you lurk behind a pseudonym in a forum like this, you detract from the value of what you write. First, we readers have no idea of whether you have any standing to say what you say because we cannot consider the source. Would you, for example, accept the medical opinions of somebody whose credentials you cannot assess? Second, you leave the impression that you don’t have the courage of your convictions either. I’m willing to stand up and have what I say be evaluated in light of who and what I am. Why aren’t you?
You may or may not know that Scott, our intrepid host, can track your IP address back to its source. No doubt others can, too. So you should be prepared for the fact that whatever you write can, indeed, be traced back to you. The Internet Boogeyman is already lurking under your bed. Cowering behind a pseudonym won’t make him go away.
The impression you leave is like someone heckling from the back of a darkened theatre. Come out into the light and let us see who’s making all that noise.
The other possibility, of course, is that whatever follows “imxploring . . .” is the detritus left behind by a failed experiment in artificial intelligence self-generated by an old Commodore that somebody forgot to unplug.
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